{"id":2540,"date":"2025-10-21T20:59:17","date_gmt":"2025-10-21T17:59:17","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/an.magicworld.com.ua\/?p=2540"},"modified":"2025-10-21T23:08:29","modified_gmt":"2025-10-21T20:08:29","slug":"rozmova-z-andriyem-zelinskym","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/an.magicworld.com.ua\/en\/interview\/rozmova-z-andriyem-zelinskym\/","title":{"rendered":"Conversation with Andriy Zelinsky"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/creators.spotify.com\/pod\/profile\/magicworld\/embed\/episodes\/--e38112q\/a-ac59hi1\"> <\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-spotify wp-block-embed-spotify wp-embed-aspect-21-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe title=\"Spotify Embed: Andrii Zelinskyi on prudence, survival of the Ukrainians, and the struggle against darkness \u2734 Archetype of the Nation\" style=\"border-radius: 12px\" width=\"100%\" height=\"152\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture\" loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/412pIAl4NntGkwjVHltVuY?si=vRCuEsg4QBuYAcj4PK2KDw&#038;utm_source=oembed\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>&nbsp;Guest of the episode:<\/strong> Father <strong>Andriy Zelinskiy<\/strong> \u2014 Chair of the Supervisory Board of the Ukrainian Veterans Fund, co-founder of the Ukrainian Leadership Academy, lecturer at the Ukrainian Catholic University, political scientist, writer, public figure, and chaplain of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Andrii Zelinskyi on prudence, survival, and the struggle against darkness \u2734 Archetype of the Nation\" width=\"1102\" height=\"620\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/CnLK2XYQrDo?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript of conversations<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> Hello, I\u2019m Nik Lysytskiy, and this is <em>Archetype of the Nation<\/em> \u2014 a cultural project that explores the foundations of Ukrainian identity: who we were, who we\u2019ve become, and who we can be.<br>We search for answers in folklore and through conversations with remarkable people who embody the spirit of our nation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Today\u2019s guest is Father <strong>Andriy Zelinskiy<\/strong> \u2014 Chair of the Supervisory Board of the Ukrainian Veterans Fund, co-founder of the Ukrainian Leadership Academy, lecturer at the Ukrainian Catholic University, political scientist, writer, public figure, and chaplain of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church.<br>Good day, Father Andriy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andriy Zelinskiy:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> Good day. Peace be with you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> And for those who don\u2019t know, you hold three university degrees \u2014 in philosophy, theology, and political science. Is that right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andriy Zelinskiy:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> Excellent.<br>Each episode of our project focuses on one of the core values that shape the Ukrainian nation \u2014 one element of our national identity.<br>With you, I\u2019d like to talk about <em>prudence<\/em> \u2014 or, as it\u2019s often called, <em>folk wisdom<\/em>.<br>To start, let\u2019s look at how this concept is defined.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">According to the explanatory dictionary, <em>prudence<\/em> is the ability to think, reason, and act correctly and wisely.<br>The <em>Great Ukrainian Encyclopedia<\/em> describes it as a practical moral virtue that helps a person choose the right means to reach a goal, make sound decisions, and act according to the idea of goodness.<br>Wikipedia adds that <em>prudence<\/em> is a moral quality \u2014 one of the four cardinal virtues \u2014 that means being able to discern where good lies and where evil begins.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">While preparing this episode, we explored how prudence appears in Ukrainian folklore and culture in general \u2014 and came to the following conclusion:<br>Prudence is one of the defining mental and cultural traits of Ukrainians. It shows itself in thoughtful judgment, caution in action, and the ability to think strategically.<br>The Ukrainian worldview has always leaned toward wise compromise rather than radicalism.<br>Customary law, the community, and the family \u2014 all of these institutions were built on finding reasonable and fair decisions, on the ability not to act rashly but to listen to others.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Father Andriy, how would you personally define prudence?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andriy Zelinskiy:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> Let\u2019s start from the very beginning \u2014 with the Greeks.<br>For them, the term was <em>s\u014dphron\u0113sis<\/em>, meaning \u201cprudent\u201d or \u201cof sound mind.\u201d It comes from two roots: <em>s\u014ds<\/em>, meaning \u201chealthy,\u201d and <em>phron\u0113sis<\/em>, meaning \u201creason\u201d or \u201cpractical wisdom.\u201d<br>So when we speak of prudence, the classical sources describe it as <em>healthy reason<\/em> or <em>sound judgment<\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s about the ability to choose between good and evil \u2014 that inner clarity that helps a person tell one from the other.<br>And over time, this \u201chealthy reason\u201d becomes not just the basis for proper analysis, but also the foundation for right action.<br>That\u2019s another important dimension of prudence \u2014 practical wisdom: the capacity to recognize, to discern, and then to act rightly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When we talk about prudence, we\u2019re really talking about how a person applies their analytical abilities in real life \u2014 not abstractly, but as <em>living wisdom<\/em>.<br>It\u2019s not about some distant, universal truth \u2014 like the Greek <em>Sophia<\/em>, the cosmic wisdom that holds the universe together.<br>No, this is wisdom in action \u2014 the kind that allows a person, or an entire people, to survive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">A nation must be wise. It must be prudent \u2014 because that\u2019s what ensures survival.<br>Prudence guarantees the ability to push through challenges of any scale \u2014 whether it\u2019s an external threat, internal conflict, or economic hardship \u2014 because life must go on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Prudence always stands on the side of life.<br>It helps a person orient themselves, mobilize their inner resources, and act in the direction of life itself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And that\u2019s especially important when we talk about <em>identity<\/em> in today\u2019s Ukrainian public discourse.<br>Somehow, we\u2019ve reduced the idea of identity to <em>symbols<\/em> of identity \u2014 colors, flags, anthems. But these are just symbols \u2014 they <em>communicate<\/em> something deeper.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">A flag or anthem is not the state itself.<br>They symbolize it \u2014 they express an essence, a way of being.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s why it\u2019s so important to go beyond the symbols and rediscover the true meaning of <em>identity<\/em>.<br>Symbols help a nation recognize itself \u2014 to identify with certain principles and a certain wisdom that allows it to endure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The word \u201cidentity\u201d literally means <em>self-being<\/em> \u2014 the ability to sustain one\u2019s existence and reproduce it from within.<br>That\u2019s identity.<br>But to preserve it, we must also communicate it \u2014 through language, through culture, and through values.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">One of the key social mechanisms that keeps our <em>selfhood<\/em> alive \u2014 what both distinguishes us from others and unites us among ourselves \u2014 is our <em>system of values.<\/em><em><br><\/em> Values are the criteria we use to make decisions, individually or collectively.<br>They lie at the heart of our identity and our resilience \u2014 they help us remain ourselves, stay united, and protect against outside influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s why prudence isn\u2019t just a nice word or a poetic expression of folk wisdom.<br>It\u2019s a <em>practice<\/em> \u2014 a way of being that ensures the survival of the individual, the community, and the nation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So I would call prudence one of the <em>Sophian<\/em> \u2014 meaning \u201cwisdom-based\u201d \u2014 markers of the Ukrainian people.<br>We\u2019ve survived and remained ourselves because, among other things, we were prudent.<br>We\u2019ve known how to distinguish right from wrong, good from evil \u2014 through reflection, communication, and dialogue \u2014 and we\u2019ve always chosen life, even when the price was high.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> How is folk wisdom different from philosophical or academic wisdom?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andriy Zelinskiy:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> Well, first of all, there has to be some connection \u2014 because wisdom is about <em>being itself<\/em>, about existence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Different philosophical and religious traditions have tried to explain what wisdom means.<br>Academic wisdom, of course, operates within its own sphere \u2014 it\u2019s about <em>method and analysis.<\/em><em><br><\/em> Academic discourse follows a scientific approach, a clear analytical logic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But folk wisdom \u2014 that\u2019s something else entirely.<br>For me, its defining quality isn\u2019t just about gaining knowledge or deepening understanding.<br>It\u2019s about the <em>ability to survive.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Folk wisdom, as I mentioned earlier, is part of a people\u2019s identity.<br>And it doesn\u2019t always appear in the form of a written text.<br>Sometimes it exists as a lived experience \u2014 a practice, an intuition, a sense of how to act \u2014 even if it goes against scientific reasoning or everyday logic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But it allows people <em>to be.<\/em><em><br><\/em> And in the deepest sense, <em>to be<\/em> doesn\u2019t just mean to exist \u2014 it means to preserve the ability to give life, to pass it on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That kind of maturity \u2014 the ability to become yourself, to fully realize your own potential in order to serve others \u2014 is something I write about in my book <em>Map.<\/em><em><br><\/em> And that transmission of life through the person \u2014 that, to me, is the truest expression of wisdom.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> In folklore, reason \u2014 the kind you learn at school \u2014 is often contrasted with wisdom, which comes through life experience.<br>In your opinion, how much does formal education actually help form true wisdom and prudence?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andriy Zelinskiy:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> I\u2019m not sure academic education was ever meant to aim that high.<br>It\u2019s really just one part of a larger process \u2014 what I\u2019d call <em>formation.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And today, especially in Ukraine, our education system has largely lost that formative component, which is a real loss.<br>Formation \u2014 shaping a person\u2019s inner world \u2014 can\u2019t be reduced to analysis or rational thinking alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Let\u2019s start with something deeper: why do we need both reason and wisdom in the first place?<br>Because both are what allow us to truly <em>connect with reality.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We\u2019re human beings \u2014 living, feeling, thinking beings \u2014 and we exist within a specific context.<br>Our survival, our growth, and our ability to leave something behind \u2014 to pass on a world, a <em>Ukrainian world<\/em> \u2014 all depend on how well we can stay in touch with that reality.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s about preserving our integrity while adapting to the times we live in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Right now, for instance, we\u2019re facing an <em>existential challenge.<\/em><em><br><\/em> Adapting to it means activating everything we have \u2014 our technical, intellectual, and spiritual capacities \u2014 to strengthen ourselves.<br>That includes developing our defense industry, preparing our soldiers, supporting civilians, and, most importantly, shaping our <em>consciousness.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We have to stay fully aware of what\u2019s happening around us and respond wisely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There are two approaches to this.<br>The first is academic: it measures needs, analyzes data, and proposes logical steps to meet challenges.<br>But the other goes much deeper \u2014 into the parts of the human heart and mind that can\u2019t be captured in any formula.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Those inner dimensions have taken centuries, even millennia, to evolve \u2014 they\u2019re what make <em>humanity<\/em> possible.<br>And it\u2019s not just about preserving the <em>human being<\/em> \u2014 it\u2019s about preserving <em>humanness<\/em> itself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s why our connection with reality has to be <em>whole.<\/em><em><br><\/em> It requires reason and analysis, yes \u2014 but also compassion, empathy, and moral strength.<br>Only then can humanity truly remain on the map of world history.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> Let\u2019s touch on a topic everyone thinks they understand \u2014 politics.<br>In the past, when communities chose a hetman or a village elder, the main requirement was that a leader be wise \u2014 prudent, experienced, capable of analyzing situations and making balanced decisions.<br>In Ukrainian folk songs and historical ballads, leaders were praised not only for their bravery but also for their strategic thinking and diplomacy.<br>As a political scientist, how would you describe today\u2019s politicians?<br>Do you see wisdom and prudence among them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andriy Zelinskiy:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> You know, we\u2019re already citizens of the 21st century \u2014 and unfortunately, politics today has lost much of its substance.<br>If we look globally, political figures have become\u2026 pale, uninspired.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Even now, when we try to make sense of world events, we still turn to leaders of the past.<br>We quote Churchill.<br>We reference Reagan.<br>We look further back in history for examples.<br>But we rarely quote today\u2019s politicians as moral authorities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Perhaps that\u2019s because we\u2019re missing something \u2014 genuine wisdom.<br>Sure, there\u2019s analytical skill, the ability to process information quickly and make fast decisions.<br>But wisdom is more than intellect; real authority comes from <em>lived experience and moral grounding<\/em>.<br>It\u2019s built on values \u2014 on something that reaches beyond the immediate moment or personal interest.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">As I mentioned earlier, leadership isn\u2019t just about caring for people \u2014 it\u2019s about caring for <em>humanness itself.<\/em><em><br><\/em> That\u2019s what distinguished earlier generations of political figures.<br>In their speeches, you could hear a concern not only for individuals, but for humanity as a whole.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That spirit is rare today.<br>And I wouldn\u2019t even call what we see now prudence \u2014 prudence is revealed through actions.<br>The same goes for wisdom: it can\u2019t be claimed; it must be <em>demonstrated<\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">A truly wise person leaves something behind \u2014 a <em>legacy.<\/em><em><br><\/em> Something lasting, something that grows into authority because it stems from service to the common good, not personal image.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s what we\u2019re missing.<br>Politics shouldn\u2019t be a career path \u2014 it should be a vocation of responsibility.<br>It\u2019s about serving the common good, about shaping a moral foundation that keeps society humane, guided by values that protect both freedom and dignity at every level.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And that\u2019s why these discussions \u2014 even through folklore \u2014 matter so much.<br>Some may see folklore as a relic of the past, but it\u2019s not.<br>It carries <em>archetypes<\/em> \u2014 enduring models of how we think, act, and understand the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We perceive reality through them, form our attitudes through them, and act accordingly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If we look at leaders in our history and folklore, at least three archetypes clearly emerge.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The first is <strong>the master of his own freedom<\/strong> \u2014 someone who\u2019s aware of their liberty and acts with responsibility.<br>The second is <strong>the warrior<\/strong> \u2014 a figure almost erased by Soviet heritage.<br>But if you open any Ukrainian history textbook, you\u2019ll see: our ancestors fought in countless wars.<br>Generations of warriors gave rise to generations of warriors.<br>That\u2019s part of who we are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And the third is <strong>the guardian<\/strong> \u2014 the woman who protects, preserves, and passes things on.<br>Not just tending the hearth, but actively safeguarding what must endure and ensuring its growth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I mention these three because when we talk about the <em>common good<\/em>, we\u2019re talking about something that unites everyone \u2014 a shared good that strengthens and protects us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So maybe our understanding of folk wisdom \u2014 including its practical prudence \u2014 should draw on these three archetypes:<br><strong>the master of freedom, the warrior, and the guardian.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">They\u2019re the moral foundations that can help modern Ukrainian leaders stay connected to the wisdom and legacy of past generations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> That\u2019s about the archetypes of leaders.<br>But if we look from the other side \u2014 from the people\u2019s perspective \u2014 could we say that today Ukrainian civil society acts more wisely and prudently than it did in the past? Or less so?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andriy Zelinskiy:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> There\u2019s an old saying that still stands: <em>\u201cThe people are wise.\u201d<\/em><em><br><\/em> Full stop.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But then comes the question \u2014 where do we draw the boundaries of \u201cthe people\u201d?<br>That\u2019s always made this statement complicated for me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If we approach it analytically, we\u2019d want to count everyone, collect opinions, analyze data \u2014 and yes, modern methods for studying public sentiment are useful.<br>But they often overlook something deeper \u2014 the <em>cultural and historical environment<\/em> that shapes those opinions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s like studying fish without paying attention to the water in the aquarium.<br>The water matters just as much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There\u2019s always a broader historical current \u2014 a background of shared experiences, traditions, and memories \u2014 that influences how society responds when certain triggers appear.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So yes, it\u2019s important to look at the data and trends.<br>But we must also recognize the <em>folk wisdom<\/em> that has guided Ukrainians through one existential challenge after another.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because somehow, we\u2019ve always managed to break through \u2014 to survive.<br>And that perseverance is wisdom in action.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I truly believe that prudence \u2014 the ability to act thoughtfully, strategically, and ethically \u2014 has always been one of the defining features of that wisdom.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s what allowed Ukrainians to endure \u2014 through social upheavals, economic crises, political oppression, and security threats \u2014 even while living on lands that were often ruled by others or absorbed into foreign empires.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We had to survive not just as individuals, but as <em>human beings<\/em> \u2014<br>as people fortified by humanity,<br>carrying within us the shared spiritual and cultural legacy of our nation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andriy Zelinskiy:<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> Yes \u2014 prudence has always been one of the defining marks of our collective wisdom.<br>It\u2019s what has helped Ukrainians endure \u2014 socially, economically, politically, and even spiritually.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Time and again, we\u2019ve found ourselves on lands claimed by others, drawn into foreign empires and their geopolitical designs.<br>Yet we\u2019ve always managed to endure \u2014 not merely to survive, but to remain <em>ourselves.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">To live not just as individuals, but as <em>human beings<\/em> \u2014<br>people rooted in humanity,<br>carrying within us the shared moral and cultural legacy of our nation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And that, I believe, is the true essence of what we call <em>folk wisdom.<\/em><em><br><\/em> It isn\u2019t only in clever sayings or old customs.<br>It\u2019s in the quiet, steady strength that has allowed our people to live, adapt, and move forward \u2014 generation after generation \u2014 no matter what history has demanded of us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Although the process of nation-building came later, even amid all the diverse geopolitical projects we took part in, we never lost our national and cultural identity.<br>We always knew who we were. And one of the most important expressions of this national self-awareness was folklore. Because the one truly shared space where our collective self lives\u2014where our common consciousness exists\u2014is language. It\u2019s how we speak. I\u2019m talking here about speech itself as an element of social engineering.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What we went through, we later sang about, wrote down, and discussed. Some of it turned into proverbs and sayings, some into fables, and some into lines of folk songs\u2014sung and re-sung over generations. In those texts we left the soul of the people. We left what can\u2019t be captured by numbers or metrics\u2014something that reveals itself there and shapes our personal perception.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And in this way, we made development possible.<br>Remember, I\u2019ve said before that it\u2019s not only about survival but also about growth\u2014about adapting to new challenges. These are the true components of identity. One of the major problems in Ukrainian public discourse is that we often equate identity with the past. That\u2019s simply not true. Identity is about existence\u2014about being. Sometimes despite circumstances, sometimes because of them\u2014but being together, being ourselves, and carrying life forward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s why, when I speak about politics, wisdom, and Ukrainian identity, I often turn to metaphors\u2014metaphors drawn from folklore. As I\u2019ve already mentioned, folklore is a kind of text. And a text is like an operating system that enables the functioning of our individual and collective consciousness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Within those verbal and visual structures lie the algorithms for action.<br>Today we reinterpret them in a modern way. We may even translate them into English, believing it to be more effective\u2014but that doesn\u2019t matter. What matters is what we understand and identify with, what sustains our ability to act and create as a nation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s why I speak of three essential things\u2014things we have always done, things that helped us endure, and things that can help us again today. Because what we\u2019re really talking about are archetypes\u2014enduring models of action.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In the language of metaphor, they are: <strong>to sow the fields, to build bridges, and to light the stars.<\/strong><strong><br><\/strong> And that, too, is about fighting the darkness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">To sow the fields means cultivating the <em>economy of life<\/em>\u2014learning how to realize an idea or bring a concept into being. Yet every idea, like every dream and every form of freedom, requires resources. This is crucial. Our history repeatedly deprived Ukrainians of their land\u2014and a Ukrainian without land is a difficult thing to imagine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">By \u201cland,\u201d I don\u2019t mean only agriculture; I mean the material foundation that allows one to realize one\u2019s freedom. Freedom requires resources\u2014and so we sowed the fields. The field (<em>lan<\/em>) is a metaphor, a materialization of my dream that helps me find the means to make freedom real.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The second is bridges. We were constantly divided by rivers. Our history isn\u2019t divided only by the Dnipro; there was also the Zbruch, the Prut, and countless invisible distances in our culture and our history. That\u2019s why building bridges is so vital.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For us, survival has always meant knowing how to build bridges. Bridges are where people meet, communicate, and reconcile their visions\u2014and that\u2019s where life continues. It\u2019s another essential skill for Ukrainian politics: the ability to create institutions that guarantee unity and consolidation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And the third is to light the stars\u2014that is, to uphold the dignity of every Ukrainian.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Again, considering all our social contexts, the challenges, and the collective traumas\u2014famine, poverty, repression, and much more\u2014these could not help but shape how Ukrainians feel about themselves in a given historical moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The ability to <em>light the stars<\/em> means restoring a person\u2019s dignity\u2014helping them see and believe that there is humanity within them, that they have the right to exist. This is what I call a <strong>culture of dignity<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, if sowing the fields is about the <em>economy of life<\/em>, and building bridges is about <em>political consolidation<\/em>, then lighting the stars is about <em>human dignity<\/em>. And there is a fourth dimension\u2014an ideological one: <strong>the struggle against darkness<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In darkness, you can\u2019t see clearly. Shapes blur; meaning fades. This is crucial to understand. I remember back in 2014 and 2015\u2014since I\u2019ve been at war since 2014\u2014I often said in interviews that I could imagine what a Ukrainian defeat might have looked like back then. It would have been <em>\u201cthe Russian world under a Ukrainian flag.\u201d<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The \u201cRussian world\u201d is defined by the dominance of the collective over the individual. It\u2019s the idea that the \u201choly people,\u201d \u201cHoly Rus,\u201d or some abstract notion of national greatness always takes precedence over the human being.<br>But in that worldview, <em>the person disappears.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Even though Russian culture speaks of <em>\u201chumanity\u201d (chelovechnost)<\/em>, the real individual\u2014with rights, vulnerability, and institutions that protect their personal freedom\u2014does not exist.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And that is darkness: when abstraction prevails, and the individual human life loses its dimension, its value.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, drawing again on our history and folklore, I see these enduring patterns of action\u2014what we have always done as a people and what can still guide us today. They are the very things modern Ukrainian politicians must remember if they want to serve the common good\u2014because this is where <strong>prudence and wisdom meet<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>To sow the fields, to light the stars, to build bridges, and to fight the darkness<\/strong>\u2014these are timeless Ukrainian archetypes of survival and renewal.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nick Lysytskyi:<\/strong> So, can we say that fighting the darkness is the historical mission of the Ukrainian people?<br><strong>Andrii Zelinskyi:<\/strong> Yes, absolutely\u2014one hundred percent.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But again, for darkness not to turn into some abstract ideology, there must be <em>a person<\/em>. Only a human being can overcome darkness\u2014any kind of darkness, ideological or otherwise. We\u2019ve already lived through all this before. There must always be the human being.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">A human being means <em>concreteness<\/em>\u2014not abstraction, not speculation. And, by the way, our folklore\u2014since we\u2019re talking about prudence\u2014teaches that prudence is only possible at the level of the individual. The people as a whole can be wise only when each Ukrainian is prudent.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Even collective practices can exist only through individual action. What we need is the person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I believe this is part of a <strong>meta-history<\/strong>\u2014one attempt to define it. I write about this in my latest book, <em>The Map<\/em>, where I argue that the meta-history of Ukraine\u2014the text that holds the Ukrainian narrative together, because history is always a text, a story that becomes text\u2014is ultimately centered on the human being.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The <em>Ukrainian person<\/em>\u2014the master of their own freedom\u2014has always, despite countless political and cultural transformations, managed to orient themselves wisely: to discern where good is and where it isn\u2019t, where life is and where it isn\u2019t, and to live and act accordingly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Prudence<\/strong> makes possible a genuine connection with reality\u2014and that, in turn, is the foundation of every success, of every victory.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Nick Lysytskyi: Let me remind our viewers that today, in the Archetype of the Nation studio, we\u2019re talking about prudence with Father Andrii Zelinskyi.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Father, you\u2019ve been serving as a military chaplain since 2006\u2014almost twenty years now. Based on your experience, what role does prudence play in war?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Andrii Zelinskyi: If there were no room for prudence in our war\u2014and I\u2019m speaking about the period since 2014\u2014there would be no room for us on the political map of the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Prudence is personal wisdom. Very often, our breakthroughs didn\u2019t come from having perfectly crafted strategies, but from having prudent people\u2014those who knew how to act at the right moment. This ability to maintain a clear, grounded connection with reality\u2014that\u2019s what I mean by prudence. It\u2019s what helped us survive, not only in 2014 but through all the years since. We\u2019re now in the eleventh year of this war, and these recent years have been anything but easy. We\u2019ve seen nothing like this in the twentieth century, and it\u2019s hard to imagine anything comparable in the twenty-first.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And yet, we\u2019re still here.<br>We\u2019re still standing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We see it constantly\u2014in the news, in interviews with our defenders. They all speak about the same thing: about a kind of mental legacy, something embedded in our institutions that holds us back, that resists transformation. But there are also moments of breakthrough\u2014when individuals act with prudence, when people, as masters of their freedom, demonstrate both liberty and dignity. And they don\u2019t just declare those things\u2014they live them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Prudence is about action. It\u2019s applied wisdom\u2014wisdom that\u2019s lived out. Lived wisdom generates experience. And it\u2019s vital that we don\u2019t lose that experience. Because that\u2019s a deeper, <em>sophianic<\/em> dimension\u2014a higher form of wisdom. We must preserve the experience of our prudent people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That requires good communication. Their stories must be told\u2014in fables, in films, in myths, in songs. It needs to be shared well and become part of our culture\u2014a culture of dignity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because that\u2019s what defines us: the ability to recognize ourselves in the stories of free and dignified people. Their voices must be heard. They should sound confident\u2014not as a fleeting burst of pride, \u201ctoday we\u2019ll boast, tomorrow we\u2019ll forget,\u201d but as something that becomes our operating system\u2014our way of thinking, our worldview, our approach to life, and our motivation for action.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Nick Lysytskyi: So can we say that prudence\u2014learning from and applying our own experience\u2014should be one of the guiding principles for developing the Ukrainian army\u2019s capabilities?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Andrii Zelinskyi: Look, everything that exists, exists as a system\u2014or it doesn\u2019t exist at all. Anything that\u2019s not systemic is doomed to disappear or to become part of a more capable system.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When we talk about social systems, we can roughly distinguish three key components: resource, norm, and idea. Every idea requires resources\u2014and rules for how to use those resources to achieve a goal. That\u2019s why it\u2019s so important to systematize the experience of these prudent individuals I\u2019ve mentioned.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Otherwise, it risks becoming just another part of our folklore. We\u2019ll sing about it again, as we have before. This isn\u2019t our first war. We\u2019ve already had warriors, victories, and defeats. But too often, we\u2019ve left it all on the pages of history books.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Folklore preserves us\u2014it serves as a compass, offering moral direction. And that\u2019s why we didn\u2019t scatter or lose ourselves. It was difficult, but we endured.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And we\u2019re still here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s why it\u2019s so important to give this hard-earned experience a systemic form. Because it\u2019s not enough to sing one day about how great we were between 2014 and 2025. It cost us too much. This experience must become part of our institutional and systemic foundations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And that\u2019s where we often struggle. Institutions seem to exist separately from consciousness and values. We talk about values, but we still haven\u2019t learned how to fully integrate them into daily life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So when we talk about prudence\u2014as a value, a virtue, a lived wisdom\u2014it\u2019s essential that our institutions, too, become prudent. That people who aspire to positions of power understand that it\u2019s not just about career growth or ambition\u2014it\u2019s about wisdom.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I often say a person can be defined by a simple formula: experience plus language. Experience is what you live through, and language is how you understand it, express it, and communicate it to others. That\u2019s also how you shape yourself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But the foundation is experience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The experience of this war\u2014the prudence shown by countless Ukrainian soldiers on the battlefield and by civilians in the rear who keep the country running, who fight darkness by sustaining life amid destruction\u2014this must take institutional form. It must be articulated as a value and woven into our culture of dignity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We must speak about it. We must express it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I\u2019ll add this: many people worry that focusing on values means returning to the past. But that\u2019s not true. Identity is never about the past. It\u2019s about existence\u2014about how we choose to live. That\u2019s how we define ourselves, and that\u2019s how we want to exist.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The past is gone; it can\u2019t be brought back. But we can learn from it. That, too, is prudence\u2014drawing lessons from the past to ensure the future.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And, by the way, I often say the future doesn\u2019t really exist. There\u2019s only the metaphysical category of eternity\u2014and that\u2019s something else entirely. The future is simply the result of today\u2019s actions, the outcome of how we respond to the challenges of the present.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s how we create the future\u2014by what we do today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And that\u2019s why prudence is such a crucial part of the whole structure\u2014our foundation. It\u2019s a virtue that applies folk wisdom to one\u2019s own place and responsibility. It can become a key element in building a new Ukraine\u2014a country of free and dignified people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Nick Lysytskyi: <em>Archetype of the Nation<\/em> is produced with the support of the Ukrainian Cultural Foundation and is available in different formats. So choose what you like best\u2014listen, watch, or read our episodes\u2014and share your thoughts in the comments. Every opinion matters in this project. And of course, subscribe to our channels and pages so you don\u2019t miss anything new. All links are in the description of this episode.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Now, let\u2019s talk about faith\u2014about the question of belief. When we speak about Ukrainian identity, it\u2019s worth noting that a kind of syncretism has developed here\u2014a blending of Christian and pre-Christian traditions\u2014even though Christianity was adopted in the tenth century.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The importance of this ancient layer of belief was beautifully expressed by Ivan Ohienko, the head of the Ukrainian Greek Orthodox Church in Canada. Let me quote him:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cThe faith of a people lies at the foundation of its culture. And that culture cannot be fully understood without studying the people\u2019s faith. At the heart of that faith lies its pre-Christian roots.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Understanding the pre-Christian beliefs of the Ukrainian people is essential, because only through them can we fully grasp the nature of our contemporary spiritual culture.<br>Do you agree with that statement?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Andrii Zelinskyi: Earlier I mentioned three key ways in which both individuals and societies construct reality. First, we perceive\u2014we experience the world in a certain way. There are always shared human filters that shape how we pay attention to what\u2019s important and set aside what\u2019s not. Then, based on those perceptions, we form attitudes\u2014our ethics and value systems that guide decision-making.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And finally, we act. Our behavior, whether individual or collective, grows out of those perceptions and values.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So when Christianity came to Kyiv, it encountered a pre-existing worldview that already shaped how people saw reality. That worldview didn\u2019t vanish\u2014it became Christianized, but it didn\u2019t disappear.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I call this phenomenon <em>Sophia of Kyiv<\/em>\u2014Kyivan Wisdom.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And by that, I don\u2019t mean the Cathedral of Holy Wisdom in Kyiv, but a philosophical system\u2014a worldview I refer to as \u201cSophia, the Wisdom of Kyiv.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It unites two systems of perception\u2014and, ultimately, two ways of constructing reality. And it manifests not just in theological reflection or abstract thought, but primarily in practice\u2014in how values are lived and used as criteria for both personal and collective decisions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I even identify certain markers of this Kyivan Wisdom\u2014practices that have taken on distinct verbal form in our cultural tradition.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you analyze Ukrainian folklore\u2014and I\u2019m sure you have\u2014you\u2019ll find these markers everywhere: in songs, in fables, in classical literature. Words like <em>freedom<\/em>, <em>love of freedom<\/em>, <em>justice<\/em>, and <em>heart<\/em> constantly appear.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The heart is especially important. Hryhorii Skovoroda and the whole tradition of <em>cordocentrism<\/em> in Ukrainian philosophy make this clear. The heart\u2014<em>serce<\/em>\u2014is the moral and spiritual center of life. For me, it represents the Ukrainian understanding of <em>dignity<\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In Western Europe, the Latin <em>dignitas<\/em>\u2014dignity\u2014was directly tied to social rank and land ownership. Not everyone possessed <em>dignitas<\/em>; it was the privilege of the aristocracy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In contrast, in the Ukrainian tradition\u2014as Skovoroda articulated so brilliantly\u2014divine wisdom, <em>Sophia<\/em>, lives within the human heart. Therefore, every heart is a place where divine wisdom can dwell.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And that, I believe, is the essence of the Ukrainian spiritual worldview\u2014an inheritance of both our Christian and pre-Christian traditions: the belief that dignity and wisdom are not privileges of the few, but gifts available to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The word <em>heart<\/em> appears 1,146 times in the works of Hryhorii Skovoroda. For him, the heart contained an entire universe\u2014a wellspring of wisdom. And since everyone has a heart, everyone carries that universe within.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What does that mean? It means that every person possesses dignity, because the heart is the place where the divine meets the human.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">From this comes another fundamental idea\u2014<em>sobornist<\/em>, or conciliar unity. <em>Sobornist<\/em> is not just a word. Each of these concepts\u2014freedom, love of freedom, justice, heartfelt sincerity, and <em>sobornist<\/em>\u2014represents a living practice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We sing and write about freedom constantly. It always seems just out of reach, like Skovoroda\u2019s elusive bird that you can never quite catch\u2014but the very act of chasing it brings joy to the heart. For Skovoroda, that bird symbolized truth. And freedom, in its essence, is always the truth about human existence\u2014about being.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So: love of freedom, justice, sincerity, <em>sobornist<\/em>.<br><em>Sobornist<\/em>, again, is an expression of the people\u2019s collective wisdom\u2014it\u2019s the <em>veche<\/em> of old, the Cossack councils, the <em>maidans<\/em>. These are moments when the people themselves speak with the voice of wisdom. <em>Sobornist<\/em> is, in essence, a practice\u2014an embodied form of worldview.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And notice\u2014it still exists today. It\u2019s not some relic of the past. It\u2019s not an institutional mechanism\u2014something formally codified or bureaucratically designed\u2014but a living manifestation of popular wisdom.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When people gather, when they speak collectively, that act itself carries deep meaning. It\u2019s something institutions of power must pay attention to, because it reflects the people\u2019s attitude\u2014and, in doing so, legitimizes political decisions. These two dimensions\u2014the will of the people and the mechanisms of governance\u2014must always remain in dialogue.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Andrii Zelenskyi: Beyond these values, we should also talk about how Ukrainians understand <em>time<\/em>. This understanding comes from our pre-Christian worldview, later infused with Christianity, and it shapes our entire perception of reality.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Whether a person is religious or not, they are still formed by this culture\u2014by its unique \u201coperating system.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Time and space\u2014these are key categories.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In Ukrainian folklore, there is something remarkable: we don\u2019t have a rigid division between past and future. Instead, we live through <em>memory<\/em> and <em>hope.<\/em><em><br><\/em> We always remember what came before\u2014those we\u2019ve lost, what we\u2019ve endured.<br>Our sense of the past is <em>memory.<\/em><em><br><\/em> Our sense of the future is <em>hope.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On one hand, this is beautiful\u2014it means we never stop moving forward. On the other hand, it reflects our history: we\u2019ve rarely felt that our journey was complete, that we had finally arrived in the land of free and dignified people. And so, we keep hoping.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Here it is: our past and future\u2014<em>memory<\/em> and <em>hope.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">As for <em>space<\/em>, it too has its own dimensions in Ukrainian thought. It is the space of the sacred\u2014where <em>everything<\/em> is holy. This is an ancient pre-Christian idea: the sacred is in everything\u2014the willow, the water, the sun, the sky. The ability to perceive transcendence\u2014the divine\u2014within the visible, natural world is what I call <em>Sophian wisdom<\/em>: the art of reading wisdom from being itself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This, I believe, is one of the foundations of Ukrainian philosophy\u2014not academic or institutional, but lived. Hryhorii Skovoroda was never an academic philosopher; he was a philosopher of life, of movement, of lived wisdom. He embodied <em>Sophian wisdom in action<\/em>\u2014prudence as a way of manifesting divine wisdom in human experience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This <em>Sophian phenomenon<\/em> operates on both personal and collective levels. It shapes individuals, relationships, and even society as a whole\u2014all grounded in those same values: memory and hope.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Here it\u2019s worth recalling Serhii Krymskyi, who described the archetypal spaces of Ukrainian existence\u2014the <em>house<\/em> and the <em>temple.<\/em> The house, in his understanding, reflects the sacred order of the world. The home embodies the <em>Sophian harmony<\/em> of being.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In folklore, the <em>house<\/em>\u2014<em>khata<\/em>\u2014is a sacred space. There\u2019s a place for icons, a place to rest, a place for animals, a place to build. Every corner carries meaning. Even Ivan Nechui-Levytskyi wrote about this in classical literature.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So: love of freedom, justice, <em>sobornist<\/em>, sincerity, memory, hope, holiness, and home\u2014all form a single <em>Sophian order<\/em> of life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And there is one more essential idea that unites both the pre-Christian and Christian traditions\u2014the idea of <em>wonder.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The ability to marvel, to be astonished, gives birth to awe. For me, this is one of the defining qualities of our culture\u2014an aesthetic principle at the heart of our worldview.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ukrainian, or Kyivan, aesthetics is an aesthetics of wonder.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We could quote many\u2014Lina Kostenko, Taras Shevchenko, Pavlo Zahrebelnyi\u2014and even earlier, Metropolitan Ilarion of Kyiv, one of the first to describe Saint Sophia of Kyiv as \u201ca wonder to all surrounding nations.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This <em>sense of miracle<\/em>\u2014beauty that startles, that lifts us out of the ordinary\u2014is central.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">All these elements\u2014the markers of <em>Sophian wisdom<\/em>\u2014remain alive in our culture today. We use these words and ideas almost instinctively, often without realizing their origins, but they all come from the same source: <em>Sophia of Kyiv<\/em>, the wisdom born from the meeting of two great traditions, two worldviews, two philosophies\u2014even two faiths\u2014into what we may call <em>Kyivan Wisdom<\/em>, or simply, <em>Sophia of Kyiv.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> I\u2019m holding a remarkable book in my hands. For those listening rather than watching, it\u2019s titled <em>Semen\u2019s Stars<\/em> \u2014 an allegorical fairy tale published in 2023, written by Father Andrii. I want to ask about the main character: a boy named Semen who dreams of learning how to light stars.<br>Did you ever dream of lighting stars when you were a child?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> Actually, Semen has two dreams.<br>First, he wants to see his village from a different perspective.<br>And second, he wants to learn how to light stars.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s very important \u2014 the ability to step beyond the limits of the reality you know. I think I\u2019ve always wanted that, and I\u2019ve always tried. Because reality, as we perceive it, is built by our own consciousness \u2014 by the walls we construct around ourselves.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Think of Taras Shevchenko at the age of seven: one well-known story tells how he ran off to look for the pillars that hold up the sky, until some wagoners from a neighboring village found him and brought him home.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Running to find the pillars that hold up the sky \u2014 that\u2019s what it means to look at your world from another side. To realize that there are alternative ways of seeing yourself and your story. That there are other possibilities \u2014 ones that don\u2019t extinguish people, but ignite stars in their eyes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And if history has often tried to put out those stars, then we should seek out the people who rekindled them \u2014 who lit up the eyes of others with their love of freedom and devotion to human dignity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because these are the people who hold up the Ukrainian sky. They are the pillars that sustain it \u2014 Ukrainians who remained masters of their own freedom, free and dignified human beings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In the story, there are echoes of real figures from our history. I often mention Maria Prymachenko \u2014 she stayed true to her ideal of beauty, even when others didn\u2019t understand it. To do that, you have to look at your world from another angle, to clear away the debris and see differently. That\u2019s how you light countless stars \u2014 through your ability to wonder, and to awaken wonder in others.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And, of course, Hryhorii Skovoroda \u2014 how could we not mention him? \u201cThe world tried to catch me, but did not.\u201d His heart was greater than the world and beyond any of its offers. That too is wisdom \u2014 that is Sophia.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And Vasyl Stus \u2014 he is the symbol of refusing to accept injustice, even when everyone around you has adapted to it, when it\u2019s easier to stay silent. He chose not to compromise with untruth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This also shows how little we truly know. Our schoolbooks polish historical figures smooth, but we forget the living people behind them. And that\u2019s what <em>Semen\u2019s Stars<\/em> is about \u2014 that same boy, that same Ukrainian who knows how to light stars.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Take Hryts Pipskyi, for example. When I speak to large audiences across Ukraine, I often ask: \u201cDo you know who Hryts Pipskyi was?\u201d Usually, only a few hands go up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">He was the twenty-year-old young man at the Battle of Kruty who, staring down the barrel of a gun, sang <em>Shche ne vmerla Ukraina<\/em> (\u201cUkraine Has Not Yet Perished\u201d).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And today, we see that same spirit again.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For me, this is what freedom truly means \u2014 the radical, unwavering freedom of a Ukrainian who can look into the face of death and still sing, \u201cUkraine has not yet perished.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That is the freedom that conquers fear \u2014 the freedom to live in defiance of every possible challenge.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But do we remember Hryts Pipskyi? Sadly, not really. And he wasn\u2019t alone \u2014 there were many like him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Semen, then, is a collective image of that Ukrainian who leads us out of the ruins left by history \u2014 to remind us that the pillars holding up our sky are not ideologies or institutions, but free and dignified human beings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s not about ideology, or even abstract ideals like humanity or statehood. Those come later. The true foundation of Ukraine \u2014 of our nation \u2014 is the existence of free and dignified people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And ultimately, that is the only reason the Ukrainian state and nation must exist: to ensure that Ukrainians remain free and dignified.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> Another symbolic figure in your book is the <em>Wise Elder<\/em> \u2014 a classic archetype in Ukrainian folklore. Traditionally, in our culture and in everyday life, elders \u2014 grandfathers and grandmothers \u2014 were seen as bearers of wisdom. People came to them for advice, to learn prudence and life experience.<br>Today, with all our technology \u2014 Google, Wikipedia, and so on \u2014 things seem different. Young people rarely turn to the older generation anymore; they often believe they already possess enough wisdom, even at a young age.<br>Do you think we\u2019ve lost the tradition of seeking guidance from our elders?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> I wouldn\u2019t say that every older person today can keep up with the tools and technologies young people use, but it\u2019s crucial for the younger generation to understand the difference between <em>information<\/em> and <em>experience.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Information is easy to find \u2014 on Google, Wikipedia, anywhere. But no encyclopedia will ever give you <em>experience.<\/em><em><br><\/em> Older people are living witnesses of experience, and that\u2019s something we must remember.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">As I\u2019ve said before, a person is made up of personal experience plus language \u2014 the way we understand it, express it, and communicate it to others. That\u2019s why it\u2019s worth listening. It\u2019s worth hearing.<br>In the end, you make your own decisions \u2014 using the opportunities and skills available to you \u2014 but you must care not only about <em>the person within you,<\/em> but also about <em>the humanity within your person.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Those are not the same thing. And it\u2019s especially important today, in an age of global digital influence. I often say \u2014 we\u2019ve all been <em>hacked.<\/em> (holds up his phone) This thing here proves it. You can tell yourself you\u2019re free because you get to choose between three pairs of sneakers Instagram shows you as you pass a store \u2014 but that\u2019s not freedom, that\u2019s the illusion of choice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">True freedom is realizing that your consciousness is being programmed \u2014 that information is being poured into the walls of your mind.<br>So how do we break through that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For me, there\u2019s only one way \u2014 through <em>wonder.<\/em><em><br><\/em> That\u2019s what <em>Semen\u2019s Stars<\/em> is about as well \u2014 the power of wonder, the capacity for awe. It\u2019s the only force that can break through the system to save individuality.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Wonder cannot be programmed \u2014 because if it were, it would no longer be wonder. It\u2019s a spontaneous response of the soul to the world \u2014 the ability to notice a small detail, a fleeting moment that can become a source of meaning and strength. That is wisdom. That is experience. And you won\u2019t find that on Wikipedia.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It requires more than knowledge \u2014 it requires <em>presence.<\/em><em><br><\/em> Learning to be <em>present<\/em> in your own life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yes, education matters \u2014 it gives you the skills to reach your goals. But I know for certain that even on the highest mountain peaks, it can be lonely. Achieving a dream career doesn\u2019t guarantee happiness, maturity, or meaning. Those are the things you can\u2019t afford to lose along the way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And one of the most reliable sources for them is experience \u2014 especially the experience of wise and prudent people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> And now it\u2019s time for our traditional segment \u2014 a little game we call <em>The Folklore Chest.<\/em><em><br><\/em> Inside are proverbs and sayings about prudence and wisdom. Here\u2019s how it works: I\u2019ll start a proverb, and you, Father Andrii, will finish it. If you don\u2019t remember the traditional ending, feel free to come up with your own. Ready?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> Let\u2019s try.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> All right, here we go. \u201cMeasure seven times&#8230;\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> That\u2019s a tricky one. What comes next? I\u2019d probably finish it like this: \u201cMeasure seven times \u2014 and then rely on your experience.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> \u201cA wise person doesn\u2019t say everything they know, and a fool&#8230;\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> I don\u2019t believe in fools.<br>I believe in the <em>unwise.<\/em> Let\u2019s drop the word \u201cfool\u201d entirely \u2014 we don\u2019t need it. Notice that in Ukrainian folklore, there\u2019s no such character as \u201cIvan the Fool.\u201d You can\u2019t even translate that naturally. They have it in Russian folklore \u2014 we don\u2019t. So let\u2019s skip that one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> Fair enough. A wise person \u2014 a master of their own freedom. Then: \u201cBetter to lose with the wise than to find with a fool who doesn\u2019t exist&#8230;\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> Exactly. And since he doesn\u2019t exist, you won\u2019t find anything with him anyway. So it\u2019s better not to lose at all, but to keep searching.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> \u201cFirst, you must reason&#8230;\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> Always. You must always think before you act, because every action begins with reflection and intention.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> And now, our traditional <em>lightning round.<\/em> Seven short \u2014 or maybe not so short \u2014 questions.<br>What quality do you value most in people?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> Honesty.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> And which do you consider the worst?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> Dishonesty.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> What inspires you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> People.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> What frightens you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> Arrogance, superficiality, and awards.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> What has helped you stay strong through difficult times in your life?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> Faith.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> What is the main goal or mission of your life?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> To wake up \u2014 and help others wake up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> And if you had to choose three words to describe Ukrainians, what would they be?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> <em>Masters of their own freedom.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrii Zelenskyi:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy<\/strong><strong>:<\/strong> Friends, today in our studio we had Father Andrii Zelenskyi \u2014 head of the Supervisory Board of the Ukrainian Veterans Foundation, co-founder of the Ukrainian Leadership Academy, lecturer at the Ukrainian Catholic University, political scientist, writer, public figure, and chaplain of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Share in the comments what resonated with you most from this conversation.<br>Do you believe prudence is one of the defining values of the Ukrainian people?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Remember, you can watch <em>Archetype of the Nation<\/em> on YouTube, listen on your favorite podcast platforms, and read more on our website, <strong>magicworld.com.ua<\/strong>. There you\u2019ll also find popular-science essays by folklorist <strong>Maryna Demediuk<\/strong>, and recordings of folk songs performed by well-known actors.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Thank you for watching \u2014 and until next time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>&nbsp;Guest of the episode: Father Andriy Zelinskiy \u2014 Chair of the Supervisory Board of the Ukrainian Veterans Fund, co-founder of the Ukrainian Leadership Academy, lecturer at the Ukrainian Catholic University, political scientist, writer, public figure, and chaplain of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church. Transcript of conversations Nik Lysytskiy: Hello, I\u2019m Nik Lysytskiy, and this is Archetype [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":2038,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[125,122],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-2540","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-interview","category-prudence-en"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.2 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Conversation with Andriy Zelinsky - \u0410\u0440\u0445\u0435\u0442\u0438\u043f \u043d\u0430\u0446\u0456\u0457 - \u043c\u0443\u043b\u044c\u0442\u0438\u043c\u0435\u0434\u0456\u0439\u043d\u0438\u0439 \u043f\u0440\u043e\u0454\u043a\u0442 \u043f\u0440\u043e \u0443\u043a\u0440\u0430\u0457\u043d\u0441\u044c\u043a\u0443 \u0456\u0434\u0435\u043d\u0442\u0438\u0447\u043d\u0456\u0441\u0442\u044c<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/an.magicworld.com.ua\/en\/interview\/rozmova-z-andriyem-zelinskym\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Conversation with Andriy Zelinsky - \u0410\u0440\u0445\u0435\u0442\u0438\u043f \u043d\u0430\u0446\u0456\u0457 - \u043c\u0443\u043b\u044c\u0442\u0438\u043c\u0435\u0434\u0456\u0439\u043d\u0438\u0439 \u043f\u0440\u043e\u0454\u043a\u0442 \u043f\u0440\u043e \u0443\u043a\u0440\u0430\u0457\u043d\u0441\u044c\u043a\u0443 \u0456\u0434\u0435\u043d\u0442\u0438\u0447\u043d\u0456\u0441\u0442\u044c\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"&nbsp;Guest of the episode: Father Andriy Zelinskiy \u2014 Chair of the Supervisory Board of the Ukrainian Veterans Fund, co-founder of the Ukrainian Leadership Academy, lecturer at the Ukrainian Catholic University, political scientist, writer, public figure, and chaplain of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church. 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