{"id":2577,"date":"2025-10-21T23:19:40","date_gmt":"2025-10-21T20:19:40","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/an.magicworld.com.ua\/?p=2577"},"modified":"2025-10-21T23:19:42","modified_gmt":"2025-10-21T20:19:42","slug":"rozmova-z-antonom-osmakom","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/an.magicworld.com.ua\/en\/democratic-spirit\/rozmova-z-antonom-osmakom\/","title":{"rendered":"Conversation with Anton Osmak"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/creators.spotify.com\/pod\/profile\/magicworld\/embed\/episodes\/--e38112q\/a-ac59hi1\"> <\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-spotify wp-block-embed-spotify wp-embed-aspect-21-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe title=\"Spotify Embed: Anton Osmak on democratic spirit, value of freedom, and power of unity \u2734 Archetype of the Nation\" style=\"border-radius: 12px\" width=\"100%\" height=\"152\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture\" loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/3iTg5vjKkNFxwISBe6eLlc?si=cWv2qXlETziRM9Fyiv9LBA&#038;utm_source=oembed\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Guest of the episode: Anton Osmak \u2013 Doctor of Philosophy in Public Management and Administration, Associate Professor of the Department of National Economy and Public Management at Vadym Hetman Kyiv National Economic University, Chairman of the public organization &#8220;Miy Vidradnyi.&#8221;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Anton Osmak on democratic spirit, value of freedom, and power of unity \u2734 Archetype of the Nation\" width=\"1102\" height=\"620\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/Dwmyd_PlI-s?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript of conversations<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy:  <\/strong>Each episode of our project is dedicated to one of the values inherent to the Ukrainian people \u2014 one of the elements of our national identity. And today, we wanted to talk about an especially important value: democracy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In preparing each episode, we analyze how this or that value is represented in Ukrainian folklore \u2014 because folklore is the foundation of our traditions and the backbone of our society.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And when it comes to democracy, here\u2019s what we\u2019ve formulated after our research:<br>Democracy is an ethno-mental trait of the Ukrainian people \u2014 deeply rooted in our folklore, traditions, and customs. Since ancient times, Ukrainians have been characterized by their drive for equality, communal self-governance, elected leadership, and rejection of unlimited personal power.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It is precisely these traits that have driven Ukrainians to fight for their freedom \u2014 through uprisings and revolutions.<br>Mr. Anton, what does democracy mean to you personally?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>I\u2019d like to start with a date \u2014 one that\u2019s very symbolic. The beginning of this conversation actually started yesterday, when we marked the 35th anniversary of the Revolution on Granite.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That, to me, is democracy. It\u2019s when young people, through self-sacrifice, stepped out onto the granite pavement to defend their aspirations, their ideals, their freedoms. They stood up for their \u201cself\u201d in this world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That, perhaps, is a form of democracy \u2014 the awareness of one\u2019s own \u201cself,\u201d one\u2019s inner dignity. Of course, this sometimes leads to conflict, and in public life, conflict is a natural thing \u2014 born out of that same sense of \u201cself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But democracy is, in many ways, an ethnic imprint that lies deeply within our nation \u2014 the instinct to defend our sense of \u201cself.\u201d More precisely, what\u2019s happening now in Ukraine isn\u2019t just about <em>my<\/em> \u201cself,\u201d but <em>our<\/em> \u201cself.\u201d<br>\u201cI\u201d not as an individual, but as part of a whole \u2014 as a member and representative of this nation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>What\u2019s the difference, in your view, between democracy as a value \u2014 a social trait \u2014 and democracy as a political system?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong> You know, I think democracy begins with an understanding of freedom. There\u2019s anarchy \u2014 which, in a way, can also be seen as a kind of freedom, even a distorted form of democracy. It\u2019s also about the individual \u201cI.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But democracy, in my opinion, is freedom \u2014 yet not absolute freedom. Absolute freedom is closer to dictatorship, paradoxically, because true freedom ends where another person\u2019s freedom begins.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, freedom in the democratic sense \u2014 and especially in the national sense \u2014 is about this collective \u201cI,\u201d a freedom that\u2019s shared, connected, and conscious of others.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Democracy is freedom that\u2019s regulated \u2014 freedom that exists within a framework of rules and mutual respect. It\u2019s not anarchy. It\u2019s about \u201cI,\u201d \u201cwe,\u201d and the rules that bind us together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And these rules are not just about laws \u2014 they\u2019re about the relationships that people build within society. That\u2019s the real democracy. It\u2019s not about politics.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>And what features of the Ukrainian mentality, in your opinion, most contribute to democracy \u2014 and which ones stand in its way?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Well, ironically, the same traits that help also hinder us. Again, it\u2019s the issue of freedom. In Europe, freedom tends to be more regulated \u2014 within a stable framework. Here, we have a kind of inner anarchy, where personal freedom \u2014 the individual \u201cI\u201d \u2014 often outweighs the collective \u201cwe.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s one. The second is what I\u2019d call Cossack recklessness. It\u2019s both our strength and our weakness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That Cossack spirit \u2014 the independence, the defiance, the spontaneous resistance we\u2019ve seen since the start of the full-scale invasion \u2014 all of that is part of our national character.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But at the same time, what we often lack is the ability to stop, sit down, and negotiate. The ability to find compromise \u2014 that\u2019s what we still struggle with the most.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>How do you explain to first-year students \u2014 and I\u2019m asking you this as a teacher \u2014 what democracy really is, and why it\u2019s not just about governing the state, but about a way of life in society?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Let\u2019s put it this way \u2014 democracy isn\u2019t primarily about governing the state. Yes, we have a democratic system of governance, but that\u2019s not the essence of it. The main challenge is how to <em>explain<\/em> this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">You have to find your own approach, because every student is different. Just yesterday I had a very interesting lecture \u2014 we were discussing various issues, including digital democracy. And to reach each student individually is quite difficult, especially because of that natural independence, that Cossack spirit, that sense of personal \u201cI\u201d they all have.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But the best way to explain democracy is through <em>usefulness.<\/em> Democracy is about what <em>I<\/em>, as an individual, can do for <em>society.<\/em> What each student can do for their community. That\u2019s one of the forms of democracy \u2014 it\u2019s about connecting the personal \u201cI\u201d with the collective \u201cwe.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Unfortunately, modern politics doesn\u2019t always reflect that. I don\u2019t equate politics with democracy. Politics is competitive by nature \u2014 and yes, competition can be a manifestation of democracy. But competition doesn\u2019t always mean fair play. Politics often involves manipulation \u2014 even manipulation of democratic principles.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Still, if you open the charter of any public organization \u2014 not necessarily a political party \u2014 it will say: <em>\u201cThe organization operates in the interests of its members.\u201d<\/em><em><br><\/em> That\u2019s how democracy works too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Politics is about <em>me.<\/em><em><br><\/em> Democracy is about <em>us.<\/em><em><br><\/em> That\u2019s probably the simplest way to understand it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>If you could define it, what do you think is the main strength of Ukrainian democracy? Is it freedom of speech, open discussion, that Cossack spirit you mentioned \u2014 or something else?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>You know, there\u2019s a great Ukrainian proverb: <em>\u201cIt\u2019s easier to beat your father when you\u2019re in a group.\u201d<br><\/em> Our democracy works the same way \u2014 it\u2019s collective. It\u2019s not one-on-one; it\u2019s in a group.<br>That\u2019s the strength of Ukrainian democracy \u2014 the ability to unite.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>We\u2019ll come back to proverbs a little later \u2014 you\u2019ve already guessed what\u2019s waiting for you in our folklore chest. In each episode, we have a segment called <em>\u201cThe Folklore Chest,\u201d<\/em> where we feature something from folklore that connects to the theme of the discussion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And today, that means proverbs \u2014 but that\u2019s coming up soon.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Can I try to guess one now? I\u2019m already on the same wavelength.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>You\u2019re a lecturer in public administration and local self-government, so this seems like the perfect moment to explore this value in depth \u2014 not just in folklore, as we did in our research, but in real life: how democracy is expressed in society today, and what it truly means.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So my next question is a bit about the future \u2014 about political futurism.<br>Is it important for Ukraine to develop its <em>own<\/em> model of democracy?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>You know, I wouldn\u2019t say there\u2019s such a thing as a specifically \u201cUkrainian\u201d model of democracy. To answer your last question directly \u2014 yes, Ukraine should develop its own democratic identity, but I\u2019ll explain what I mean by that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Democracy itself doesn\u2019t really have different \u201cmodels.\u201d Democratic principles are universal. On one hand, we can talk about our unique historical path toward democracy; on the other, Ukraine is now moving firmly toward the European Union.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">By the way, the latest news is that the screening of Ukrainian legislation has been completed \u2014 that\u2019s a big step on the path to EU integration. So, it\u2019s difficult to talk about a \u201cspecial\u201d or \u201cpersonal\u201d form of democracy, because democracy, in essence, is a <strong>tool<\/strong> \u2014 a toolkit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Any democratic process involves a structured set of actions that either lead or don\u2019t lead to a particular result. If democracy is a tool, then, as in European Council projects, there\u2019s a concept known in English as <em>cases<\/em>. We live in a globalized world, so I\u2019m not afraid to use English terms.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Why? Because \u201cexamples\u201d and \u201ccases\u201d are almost the same, but \u201ccases\u201d are systematized examples \u2014 tested, categorized, studied.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Take, for instance, the Council of Europe\u2019s activities in Ukraine. I\u2019d like to greet my colleague Oleksii Kovalenko, who recently defended his dissertation. His project is about <em>playing democracy<\/em> \u2014 essentially teaching democracy through interactive methods, through games.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I won\u2019t name the specific programs so it doesn\u2019t sound like an advertisement, but these kinds of \u201ccases\u201d \u2014 these tools \u2014 are adapted for European countries. Interestingly, this concept of <em>playing democracy<\/em> was developed here, in Ukraine, and then adapted for use across Europe.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, it\u2019s an exchange \u2014 some tools come from there and take root here; others are born here and find success abroad. For example, participatory budgeting \u2014 what we call the <em>public budget<\/em> \u2014 that idea took root in Ukraine and continues to evolve, even amid war.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And that\u2019s democracy \u2014 citizens managing a part of public funds, making collective decisions. It\u2019s a form of controlled, structured democracy, but one that empowers people. It\u2019s democracy through consent \u2014 through an agreement between authorities and the community.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The public budget is also a strong indicator of civic engagement. That\u2019s one side of it. On the other hand, this tool came to us from abroad \u2014 from the global exchange of democratic ideas.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, can we talk about a uniquely Ukrainian democracy? Not really \u2014 the world today is a <em>globalized democracy<\/em>. Some democratic tools work here, others develop at lightning speed, but there\u2019s one nuance: everything has its life cycle.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">A tool that\u2019s effective today might not be tomorrow. So, the development of democracy isn\u2019t just about growth \u2014 it\u2019s about <em>mining<\/em> new tools from the public sphere, finding new ways for citizens to participate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Returning to my students \u2014 I teach a wonderful course (I won\u2019t name it exactly), but its essence is about <em>projects in the public sphere.<\/em> Democracy, among other things, is about projects. It\u2019s about education \u2014 understanding these tools, studying how they work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s why I always start my class with a short video fragment. Unfortunately, not many of these resources are available in Ukrainian translation. Just yesterday, I shared some new materials in English \u2014 they\u2019d only been released the day before. That\u2019s how fast it moves.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Education \u2014 real education, not just higher degrees or formal courses \u2014 is the foundation. It\u2019s what allows democracy to grow and renew itself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">You know, I\u2019d describe the problem of our democracy as a kind of <em>naive stage<\/em> \u2014 a stage that\u2019s always searching, but often searching for not just simple, but <strong>very<\/strong> simple solutions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Education and democracy \u2014 they\u2019re about understanding that the road to solving a problem is long and difficult. I\u2019ll go back again to the idea of project work in the public sphere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We start with a simple task for the students: you\u2019re walking down the street, looking at your smartphone \u2014 even glancing at billboards \u2014 but learn to look <em>around<\/em> you. If you notice something wrong, if you see a problem, and an idea appears in your mind \u2014 that\u2019s already the beginning of democracy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because the moment you see a problem and try to find a way to fix it \u2014 that\u2019s democracy in action. You see an issue; you can\u2019t solve it alone; so you start looking for others who care. You build a team, a small community of like-minded people. That\u2019s the next step. And then, step by step, you start working on the solution together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">True democracy \u2014 classroom democracy, community democracy \u2014 isn\u2019t about saying \u201cI want it here and now.\u201d It\u2019s about understanding the long road toward solving a problem.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">My students usually start very practically. They describe the problem they see and estimate how much time they think it would take to solve it. Most say, \u201cWe\u2019ll fix it in a week.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But that\u2019s not how it works. \u201cJohnny will make me an edit,\u201d they say \u2014 like it\u2019s a video that just needs a quick fix. Later, when we revisit the same projects, we compare the first version with the final one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">At the start, it\u2019s a baby \u2014 raw, naive. By the end, it\u2019s an adult \u2014 mature, realistic, burdened with real challenges. The project is no longer just \u201cJohnny, make an edit,\u201d but a deeper understanding of what democratic tools and processes really mean.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In democracy, there\u2019s no such thing as \u201ctoday for tomorrow.\u201d Everything takes time, patience, and growth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>The Archetype of the Nation project is created with the support of the Ukrainian Cultural Foundation and is available in different formats \u2014 so choose the ones you like. Watch, listen, read our episodes, and share your thoughts in the comments, because in this project, every opinion matters.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And, of course, subscribe to our channels and pages so you don\u2019t miss anything interesting. All links are in the description of this episode.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">By the way, you mentioned that democracy is a tool. In one of our previous episodes, Valerii Markus said that <em>justice<\/em> is also a tool. So, since we\u2019re talking about values \u2014 it turns out that values themselves can function as tools, if applied correctly in specific contexts and actions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Exactly. The ability to realize yourself \u2014 and to understand the collective \u201cwe\u201d \u2014 is a value. Realizing that you\u2019re not alone, that there\u2019s a community around you, that there are people who support you \u2014 that\u2019s also a value.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">A community means diversity \u2014 different opinions, different experiences \u2014 and that diversity itself is a value.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And to continue, my respectful response to Mr. Markus \u2014 this value is not simple. It\u2019s complex, and it\u2019s a skill that must be developed. Because we still have personal attitudes, sensitivities, and fears when it comes to publicity, freedom of speech, and openness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s a special value for everyone \u2014 for public organizations, for state authorities, for local governments, and even for individual politicians and political parties. It\u2019s a value that\u2019s extremely difficult to achieve \u2014 almost impossible, but vital.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We often say democracy equals freedom of speech. And yes, freedom of speech is a tremendous value \u2014 especially freedom of speech <em>in spite of everything.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The modern digital world gives us almost unlimited freedom of speech. But at the same time, considering that today\u2019s wars are fought primarily in the digital space, another great value is emerging \u2014 the <em>ability to hear those who are silent.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">My team and I once realized something important. It\u2019s one thing to receive visible support \u2014 comments, likes, rallies. But try to feel the support of those who never speak out. That\u2019s the real challenge.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So yes \u2014 freedom of speech is a value. But the <em>goal<\/em> is to learn to hear the silent ones.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Let me explain \u2014 maybe I\u2019ve said this before in previous episodes, maybe not, but this feels like the right moment to bring it up. Why are we even talking about values in this project?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because \u2014 well, as we know, and I\u2019m sure you and I both understand this \u2014 the European Union is built on six core values.<br>Ukraine, meanwhile, has always been built primarily on traditions \u2014 and no one would argue with that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But on the other hand, if we want to grow, to evolve, to become the strong and modern country we all strive for, then we have to rely not only on historical heritage and folklore, but also on something that, while modern, forms the very foundation of a nation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And, in our view, those things are values. But the question is \u2014 <em>what<\/em> values? Some of them overlap with European values, some may differ, and perhaps we have even more than twelve \u2014 but each one is important.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So in this project, we chose twelve key values to explore \u2014 and among them, one of the most significant is democracy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s fascinating to see how, when values themselves become tools, they help us understand who we are today and who we can become in the future \u2014 built on that foundation of values.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s also important to understand whether these values are truly <em>ours<\/em>. That\u2019s why, in each episode, we examine a value under a kind of microscope \u2014 to understand what it really means. Is it truly part of our identity, or did we just invent it? Was it once part of our folklore but has now lost relevance in modern society?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We\u2019re trying to find that out together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>In folklore, values are a complicated thing \u2014 because folklore itself is so diverse. There\u2019s the <em>nominal<\/em> folklore \u2014 things like ritual songs or symbolic expressions \u2014 and there\u2019s <em>mental<\/em> folklore, which reflects our worldview and mentality.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Nominal folklore might be something like a work song or a refrain \u2014 but it\u2019s still folklore. And yes, even something like the Revolution on Granite, which we mentioned earlier, can be considered folklore \u2014 it\u2019s part of our living tradition. It\u2019s about values too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But I\u2019d emphasize that <em>any<\/em> value can be understood first and foremost through the lens of <em>freedom<\/em>.<br>The key question is: what kind of freedom does this value give us?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Secondly, we must remember that values aren\u2019t constant. They\u2019re not fixed or given once and for all.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What values does a newborn child have?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>To live.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Exactly. Values are shaped by the environment \u2014 they grow and evolve. They\u2019re instilled by parents, in kindergartens, schools, universities, and by society itself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Freedom, too, is not innate. It\u2019s something learned and earned. Yes, perhaps certain traits are embedded in our character, but values are not static \u2014 they\u2019re dynamic. They develop.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So we can\u2019t just say that Ukrainians have some specific, unchanging set of values.<br>It\u2019s within our power \u2014 here and now \u2014 to nurture those values, to create new ones, and to help them grow.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>But in order to do that, we first have to <em>define<\/em> the values we\u2019re striving for. And that\u2019s really the purpose of this entire project \u2014 to define, discuss, and reflect on the twelve key values we\u2019ve identified.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s a call for dialogue \u2014 for conversation and reflection.<br>Do we see these values as truly our own? Do we want to develop them further? Or do we perhaps need new ones?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Let us know in the comments if you think there are other values we should add. Write your own list of what you consider Ukrainian values.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Maybe it\u2019s not as light or entertaining as most content people scroll through today, but it\u2019s important \u2014 because thinking about values now means shaping the future.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, speaking of democracy \u2014 both past and future \u2014 can democracy exist without a long-standing democratic tradition in society?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Just like values, democracy is not constant. It evolves. It changes along with the global world \u2014 and with technology.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The tools of democracy \u2014 those modern digital democratic tools \u2014 they\u2019re reshaping how democracy functions.<br>In some ways, they simplify it; in others, they complicate it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>But there are countries that never had democracy, don\u2019t have it now, and probably never will.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Well, yes \u2014 there are countries where democracy simply isn\u2019t meant to exist, where it functions more as a kind of theater.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Take China, for example \u2014 a \u201ctheater of democracy.\u201d<br>Remember the Shenzhen experiment \u2014 the social credit system? On one hand, it seems authoritarian, but in theory, it\u2019s built on an idea that if you behave well, contribute to society, and act responsibly, your rating rises \u2014 your influence grows.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In essence, that\u2019s also a form of democracy \u2014 one based on behavior and public contribution.<br>If your actions harm others, your rating drops.<br>Logically speaking, that\u2019s still a kind of democratic mechanism \u2014 though very different from what we traditionally mean by democracy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>The series <em>Black Mirror<\/em> portrayed this kind of society very vividly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Exactly \u2014 and there\u2019s that fine line we call, with a bit of dark humor, the \u201cdigital concentration camp.\u201d It\u2019s like a narrow, winding trail over an abyss \u2014 on one side lies total digital control, and on the other, democracy. The question is, how do we keep our balance and not fall off either side?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>By the way, speaking of other countries and the future, Winston Churchill said more than half a century ago: \u201cDemocracy is the worst form of government \u2014 except for all the others that have ever been tried.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>And humanity still hasn\u2019t come up with anything better.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>True. So why, then, are there still so many authoritarian regimes in the world today?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Probably because of the same thing we\u2019ve been talking about \u2014 personal freedom and national values. In countries that never had a historical foundation of freedom \u2014 where freedom wasn\u2019t passed down through generations, through family, through education \u2014 democracy simply has nowhere to take root.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If, in a nation\u2019s collective memory, there\u2019s no experience of freedom \u2014 no cultural or historical DNA of democracy \u2014 where could it possibly come from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Take the countries we sometimes call \u201cthe swamp.\u201d In the 1990s, there were certain movements, yes \u2014 what you could call a <em>theater<\/em> of democracy \u2014 but there was no real historical foundation for freedom.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you look at history \u2014 and I don\u2019t have the exact figures in front of me, but I remember a study comparing the number of uprisings \u2014 you\u2019ll see something striking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">A rebellion, after all, is also a form of democracy. It\u2019s a manifestation of freedom, of dissent \u2014 and that, too, is a value.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In the territory of Ukraine during the 1600s, 1700s, and 1800s, there were thousands of peasant uprisings \u2014 every year. On the territory of the \u201cswamps,\u201d there were only a few dozen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s a kind of statistical proof \u2014 a historical marker of freedom, of grassroots democracy. It\u2019s part of what we inherited \u2014 a reflection of the deep roots of our modern democracy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Even rebellion \u2014 oddly enough \u2014 and even a touch of anarchy, are expressions of democracy. Not in the formal sense, but as emotional and moral manifestations of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Modern democracy, of course, is democracy <em>with rules<\/em> \u2014 structured, deliberate, lawful. But rebellion, uprising \u2014 those are also signs of democracy, just in its raw, untamed form. They represent readiness \u2014 the readiness of people to act.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because what is rebellion? If we go back to folklore, back to the archetype of the \u201cI\u201d and the \u201cwe,\u201d rebellion is never the act of one person.<br>Rebellion is always a <em>social phenomenon.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>There\u2019s also the opinion \u2014 and we hear it more often these days \u2014 that authoritarian regimes are actually more effective than democratic ones, simply because they can make decisions faster. And sometimes, even people in democratic societies start to repeat this idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So what are democracy\u2019s chances for the future?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>The only real chance for democracy to survive in the future is through change \u2014 through constant development and adaptation. We\u2019ve already reached the stage of digital democracy, but now we\u2019re moving even further, toward a far more complex philosophical question \u2014 the recognition of democracy within artificial intelligence itself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Philosophers and science fiction writers have long discussed this \u2014 the relationship between human intelligence and machine intelligence \u2014 and this too relates to democracy. The key question is: <em>what can artificial intelligence contribute to democratic society?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We began our conversation with roots \u2014 mythology, history \u2014 and now we\u2019ve arrived at the future. The central challenge for democracy, compared to authoritarian or totalitarian systems, lies in decision-making speed. Yes, totalitarian regimes make decisions quickly. But the real issue is \u2014 <em>how right are those decisions, and what are their consequences?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Quick decisions don\u2019t necessarily mean good ones. The world itself changes even faster. Modern technology only complicates this, because decision-making \u2014 and here I mean managerial decision-making \u2014 requires not just action but analysis.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In a totalitarian system, one person makes those decisions. It\u2019s efficient \u2014 but narrow. Modern democracies, using big social data, can now significantly accelerate their own decision-making processes while still basing them on public input. Yet gathering genuine opinions, especially from those who remain silent, is still extremely difficult.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s why the effectiveness of democratic decisions is so complex. But with data analysis, with digital tools, we can at least speed up <em>how<\/em> those decisions are formed. Authoritarian systems win on speed \u2014 but democracy can win on accuracy and balance.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And in any race \u2014 whether political, social, or technological \u2014 there is always a leader: the one who moves faster, who expresses ideas more clearly, who articulates values better. A <em>leader<\/em> is, in essence, a bearer of values. People either rally around one such bearer or choose another.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And here\u2019s where the true art of democracy lies \u2014 in negotiation. The ability to negotiate between value-bearers, between leaders \u2014 that\u2019s what sustains democracy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>What, in your opinion, is the biggest threat to Ukrainian democracy right now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>If we put it figuratively, there\u2019s a constant struggle \u2014 democracy on one side of the scale, and opposition on the other. And there\u2019s also war. Unfortunately, war and democracy are not synonyms.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But democracy \u2014 this multitude of small fish that together can resist one big predator \u2014 is still a tool, even in wartime. It\u2019s a system that allows coordination, self-organization, and resilience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>And what if, hypothetically, democracy disappeared in Ukraine tomorrow, replaced by a rigid vertical of power \u2014 as we\u2019ve already seen before?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Then we would lose the culture of compromise \u2014 the very foundation of democracy. Let me give an example.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There was once a compromise reached between local authorities, the community, and a small business. In one park, a section of land was allocated for picnic gazebos \u2014 for people to enjoy grilling outdoors, as is our custom. It\u2019s a sort of national tradition, a social ritual, just like in the United States.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, they found balance. The business earned some income, but also maintained order and provided security in the park. People enjoyed their leisure; the park stayed clean and green. The wolves were fed, the sheep were safe. That\u2019s what democracy looks like \u2014 a <em>social contract.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But yesterday, those gazebos were demolished. Yes, the law was technically violated \u2014 they didn\u2019t have proper documentation. But something more was lost \u2014 that small social contract, that mutual understanding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We have one big social contract as a nation, but it\u2019s made up of thousands of small ones \u2014 small agreements, local compromises, moments of trust. When these are broken, the community feels betrayed. People feel that something essential was violated.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And that public disappointment \u2014 that negativity \u2014 is also a form of value. It\u2019s society\u2019s emotional response to imbalance, a signal that the democratic fabric has been damaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>You\u2019ve just described a situation where you actually acted as a public organization. I assume you had to interact with local authorities as well, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Yes, exactly. In this case, the public organization worked as a kind of tool \u2014 a mechanism to process and address citizens\u2019 requests. It\u2019s a <em>technical<\/em> tool, but also a unifying one. An idea brought people together, and that shared idea produced a compromise.<br>And when there\u2019s compromise, there\u2019s balance, and everything works calmly. Now a new factor has appeared \u2014 a \u201cpathogen,\u201d so to speak. We don\u2019t yet know how this story will end, but the process continues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>If we look more broadly \u2014 not just at this particular park story \u2014 how would you assess the role of local self-government in Ukraine today, especially in the context of democracy?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>I understand perfectly well that war, by its nature, doesn\u2019t allow for full democracy. It just doesn\u2019t. But even under such conditions, it\u2019s still about <em>compromise<\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ideally, there should be balance \u2014 between central government and local authorities. There must be a legal equilibrium where their decisions complement and restrain each other. And right in the middle of that balance should be the <em>community<\/em> \u2014 the people \u2014 acting as the stabilizer, the balancer of this democratic system.<br>That, too, is a value.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Let me remind our viewers that today in the \u201cArchetype of the Nation\u201d studio we\u2019re discussing democracy with Anton Osmak.<br>Tell me, is it possible to raise a democratic citizen without having democracy in schools and universities?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>No.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>How do you personally support democratic principles in your teaching?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Well, you know, some teachers work by the rule: \u201cIt\u2019s done my way or not at all.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Because <em>I said so<\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Exactly. Of course, there are things defined by law, by academic sequence, by procedure. But when I work with students, I tell them: \u201cYou can disagree with me. Let\u2019s discuss it.\u201d Sometimes I even change my point of view after hearing them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Each student has their own personal experience \u2014 including democratic experience \u2014 and that\u2019s valuable. I always try to keep the class dialogic. Sometimes, we start a discussion and end up staying for an extra hour or two \u2014 even until midnight \u2014 because the topic resonates so deeply that students <em>demand<\/em> to keep talking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And you know, I\u2019ve realized that society \u2014 any society \u2014 is made up of small social groups. Often, these groups don\u2019t understand one another. Democracy is about learning to achieve balance, to hear those who are silent, to consider other perspectives.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In Kyiv, for example, we have many civic projects that serve narrow interest groups. That\u2019s fine, but no one studies the opinions of the <em>silent majority<\/em>. And yet, the majority is usually silent. Their needs aren\u2019t analyzed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So, yes, small groups are active, loud, visible \u2014 but every \u201cbreakthrough\u201d project still affects <em>everyone<\/em>. That\u2019s why, in teaching, I value open communication \u2014 when students speak up, when they offer their perspective as representatives of another social group.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Teaching in this way is not just education \u2014 it\u2019s sociology. Adapting knowledge and practice to different social groups is a form of democracy in itself. It\u2019s a <em>value<\/em> \u2014 the value of direct dialogue.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>You mentioned that most of society tends to remain silent. Can we say that the more silent people there are, the more democratic a society becomes?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Yes \u2014 within limits. Statistically, it\u2019s about 10 to 14 percent. And according to analysts, Ukraine actually has the largest share of <em>non-silent<\/em> citizens in the world \u2014 people who speak up, who act.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">During the Revolution of Dignity, that percentage was even higher. And that\u2019s also a value \u2014 one we should be proud of.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>So, from this perspective, Ukrainians are actually more democratic than Europeans, in a sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Exactly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>That\u2019s a plus.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>A big, bold plus. Yellow and blue. Or as the military says \u2014 \u201cplus-plus.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Do you ever have internal doubts about whether democracy is truly the right path?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Of course.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Why?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Because the absence of doubt \u2014 that\u2019s totalitarianism. Doubt is analysis. If I doubt something, it means I\u2019m thinking, weighing, looking for truth. Every step in life involves a bit of doubt \u2014 and that\u2019s what makes it the <em>right<\/em> step.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>So doubt itself is democracy?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Absolutely. Doubt is part of democracy. In fact, it\u2019s one of its problems \u2014 and its strengths. European democracy, for instance, is built on doubt. Europeans question everything constantly. That\u2019s why it often seems slow. But that slowness comes from the struggle for quality \u2014 for the quality of the decisions made.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Totalitarianism, on the other hand, makes decisions instantly \u2014 no hesitation, no discussion. But are those decisions good ones? That\u2019s another question entirely. The real issue is the <em>quality<\/em> of democracy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Are there any democratic practices we still lack \u2014 things we should learn or adopt?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>It\u2019s more about readiness than about the practices themselves. Democratic practice only works when people reach the point where it becomes necessary \u2014 when they simply can\u2019t function without it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Take the local level. Democracy begins in the smallest possible unit \u2014 the family. Family decisions are already a miniature democracy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Or look at an apartment building. On one side of the courtyard, everything is tidy and organized; on the other, chaos and neglect \u2014 yet the building is the same, the people are the same. The difference lies in practice \u2014 in the ability to talk, to listen, to reach agreement, to act together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s democracy too. It starts small \u2014 with cooperation in the home, in the neighborhood \u2014 and grows into larger forms of self-government. From small democracies to great democracies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And today, in the digital world, we have countless tools for it. But the essence of democracy is not just having those tools \u2014 it\u2019s <em>knowing how to use them<\/em> to find compromise.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Even in folk tradition, we see this idea. Birds held a council to decide how to create the world \u2014 that\u2019s a form of democracy. Or take Kyrylo Kozhumyaka from the fairy tale \u2014 he didn\u2019t listen to the prince who ordered him to save his daughter from the serpent, but instead listened to the children, to the community.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And during the Cossack era, we had the councils \u2014 the <em>radas<\/em> \u2014 where the hetman was elected collectively. So democracy is deeply rooted in folklore. Would you say Ukrainian democracy is a traditional value \u2014 something ancient \u2014 or is it a modern concept?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Of course, it\u2019s ancient \u2014 it goes back to the Trypillian culture. Trypillia is our history, not someone else\u2019s. Those people lived by democratic principles long before the word existed \u2014 they united, they agreed, they found compromise. That\u2019s the essence of democracy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And history reinforces modernity: the Trypillian culture, the Cossacks, the UPA \u2014 all of them strengthened this line of continuity. Modern democracy grows out of those same roots.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>That\u2019s exactly why we say folklore is the foundation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Yes. These are the roots \u2014 not just a substitute for something, but the real roots from which democracy grows.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>On that wonderful note, let\u2019s open our <em>Folklore Chest<\/em> for the traditional game with our guest. Today we have proverbs inside \u2014 some related to democracy, some not. Your task is to read the proverb and tell us whether it relates to democracy as a value, or to something else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The first one: \u201cLife is good where people sow and reap together.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>That\u2019s democracy, of course \u2014 collective effort, shared purpose. There\u2019s even a civic organization called \u201cGroup,\u201d and they run a great website with a whole range of public projects. Democracy is all about that \u2014 doing things together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>\u201cThe community is a council \u2014 once it decides, so it shall be.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Also democracy. Both the community and the council are democratic institutions. The key is that they decide together \u2014 that the community reaches agreement. European democracy, at its core, is about compromise and respect for differing opinions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s what democracy means \u2014 when the freedom of the community rests upon the freedom of each individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">As for the next one \u2014 \u201cThe godfather and goddaughter can take an active part in the electoral process\u2026 and when half the village votes, they already have the advantage \u2014 so we wish them victory!\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>(Laughs) I\u2019d say that\u2019s what we call \u201cstrong horizontal connections.\u201d Yes?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Exactly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>And now the next proverb \u2014 with a little twist, perhaps: \u201cIt\u2019s easier to beat your father in a group.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Well, if we replace the word <em>father<\/em> with <em>Father<\/em>, that\u2019s exactly what our Belarusian neighbors didn\u2019t manage to do in the 2000s or the 2020s. Of course, democracy is about that \u2014 the courage to challenge authority, even paternal authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Let it be as the people say.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Exactly. That\u2019s democracy \u2014 the ability to agree, to come to a social contract. When people collectively make a decision, when they reach compromise, that\u2019s one of democracy\u2019s key manifestations \u2014 the act of adopting a <em>common<\/em> decision.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The same goes for the Cossack mentality. The Cossacks practiced democracy through their elections \u2014 even the hetman could be overthrown by the will of the people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>\u201cWoe to the sheep when the wolf is the shepherd.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Well, if the sheep don\u2019t gather together, and the wolf not only becomes the shepherd but also the dictator \u2014 then yes, that\u2019s what happens. We should frame this one, literally \u2014 make the background red, the text yellow \u2014 a warning to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>\u201cWithout a council, the army perishes.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>That\u2019s about compromise again. Let me explain it a bit differently. There\u2019s a modern economic saying: <em>Ten Japanese can do more together than ten Americans, but ten Americans can do more individually than ten Japanese.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s not simple. The Japanese excel in <em>collective initiative<\/em> \u2014 teamwork, coordination. Americans excel in <em>personal initiative<\/em> \u2014 leadership, innovation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Democracy needs both. It\u2019s about balancing individual initiative with collective vision.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019ll give an example from the military. I\u2019m not a soldier, but since 2014 I\u2019ve spoken to many who are \u2014 through volunteer work. A private in a siege might not see the whole battlefield, but sometimes that one private\u2019s initiative can save the entire unit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s the power of individual action for the common good \u2014 democracy in miniature.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Thank you. That was a very thoughtful response to a proverb. It\u2019s fascinating how one simple saying can provoke such deep reflection.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And now, as we near the end of our conversation \u2014 seven short questions and seven short, or not-so-short, answers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Like in a Nagant revolver \u2014 seven rounds.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>What character trait do you value most in people?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>That\u2019s hard to answer. I\u2019d rather say that every person is unique, and in each person, you can appreciate the quality that makes them who they are. So, maybe not a single <em>trait<\/em>, but <em>personality<\/em> itself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>And what trait do you consider the worst?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>The same logic applies \u2014 the worst trait is the one that destroys individuality.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>What inspires you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>The thought that the time will come when we\u2019ll be gone, but our children will live here \u2014 in this country.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>What scares you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Fear? I can shake it off. Morning\u2019s already ticking upstairs. But yes \u2014 it ties back to what I just said. I want my children to live in a truly great country.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>What helped you get through the hardest moments in life?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>At the start of the war, we created a Telegram channel focused on psychology \u2014 on overcoming stress through communication. It\u2019s still alive, quite active. During shellings or heavy attacks, people go there, talk, support one another. Helping people overcome fear \u2014 that\u2019s what helped me, too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>What is the main goal or mission of your life?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>My children should one day be able to say, \u201cHe helped us get a great country.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>If you had to choose three words to describe Ukrainians, what would they be?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>I\u2019ll say it like this \u2014 <em>madness, freedom.<\/em> These are good traits. And at the same time, freedom can also be our weakness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s paradoxical \u2014 this anarchic freedom, this wild energy \u2014 it creates heroes, but it can also make us reckless when it isn\u2019t guided by values or responsibility.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>And now, to the \u201cArtifact\u201d section \u2014 where we ask our guests to leave something behind as a keepsake, something symbolic that ties into today\u2019s theme. Tell us, what did you bring?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Well, since I\u2019ve been involved in graphic design for quite some time \u2014 especially in poster art \u2014 I decided to bring a <em>poster<\/em>. Historically, during tough times, poster art has always flourished. And today, we\u2019re seeing an incredible renaissance of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There are so many talented artists working in the social and civic sphere \u2014 people like Titok, Grekov, and many others. There\u2019s a sea of them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019ll share something interesting \u2014 many of these artists are uniting around shared social missions. For example, Cousteau and I published a book featuring Shcherbak\u2019s works \u2014 all posters \u2014 and it\u2019s absolutely stunning.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So today, in keeping with the theme, I\u2019ve brought a <em>poster dedicated to democracy.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Oh, great \u2014 that ties perfectly with recent events.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Yes, there\u2019s a little play on words here. The poster shows a girl holding a cardboard sign that says \u201cDemocrats,\u201d \u201cDemocracy,\u201d and \u201cKraft.\u201d \u201cKraft\u201d here refers to the rough brown craft paper \u2014 it symbolizes those simple, handmade posters that express personal freedom. Together, they form one continuous stream, showing that democracy in Ukraine is alive, creative, and human.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>So we could say that in Ukraine we\u2019re creating our own kind of <em>craft democracy<\/em>?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Exactly \u2014 yes, yes, <em>craft democracy<\/em>, like craft beer.<br>And here\u2019s something else I brought \u2014 my personal reference book, \u201cTools of Public Participation for Active Kyivans.\u201d It\u2019s published by the Department of Public Communications.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This is my well-used copy \u2014 you can see the bent pages, notes, marks. It contains everything we\u2019ve been talking about \u2014 the actual instruments that let people express their democratic aspirations, using modern digital tools.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Thank you so much. That\u2019s a really interesting book \u2014 I\u2019ll definitely read it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>You don\u2019t need to <em>read<\/em> it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Then I\u2019ll <em>look through<\/em> it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>No need to <em>look<\/em> either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>I\u2019ll <em>analyze<\/em> it then.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>No, no \u2014 don\u2019t analyze. <em>Use it.<\/em> That\u2019s what it\u2019s for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Thank you very much for coming to see us today \u2014 and for such a deep and thoughtful conversation. I\u2019m sure our viewers and listeners will find it really valuable. Wishing you success in your academic, teaching, and creative work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Anton Osmak: <\/strong>Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Nik Lysytskiy: <\/strong>Friends, today our guest in the \u201cArchetype of the Nation\u201d studio was <strong>Anton Osmak<\/strong> \u2014 Doctor of Philosophy in Public Management and Administration, Associate Professor at the Department of National Economy and Public Administration of Vadym Hetman Kyiv National Economic University, and Head of the public organization <em>My Joyful One<\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Tell us in the comments what you found most interesting today.<br>Do you believe democracy is one of the key values inherent to the Ukrainian people?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And don\u2019t forget \u2014 you can watch the \u201cArchetype of the Nation\u201d episodes on YouTube, listen to them on your favorite podcast platforms, or read them at <strong>magicworld.com.ua<\/strong>. There, you\u2019ll also find popular science essays by folklorist <strong>Maryna Demediuk<\/strong>, and recordings of folklore performances by well-known actors.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Thank you for joining us \u2014 and see you next time!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Guest of the episode: Anton Osmak \u2013 Doctor of Philosophy in Public Management and Administration, Associate Professor of the Department of National Economy and Public Management at Vadym Hetman Kyiv National Economic University, Chairman of the public organization &#8220;Miy Vidradnyi.&#8221; Transcript of conversations Nik Lysytskiy: Each episode of our project is dedicated to one of [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":2427,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[117,125],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-2577","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-democratic-spirit","category-interview"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.2 - 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